DMR Gutters Gutter Installation Quality Standards Page

Introduction

DMR's Work Standards for Gutters
The list below explains the details about the 31 clearly important advantages over the local competition for just basic gutter and downspout installations. These do not even including description of the 'No-clog option' advantages I do on most gutter jobs for a much more reasonable cost. For a comparison of leaf debris protection for gutters with the different concepts and a list of advantages go to my No-clog Comparison web page, which is much more than just a check list you'll see on other web sites.

To the right is a copy of our cover sheet I have as part of the presentation folder I give each client when providing them a bid. In this presentation folder I also provide a list of my current prices, a copy of the Better Business Bureau's NW Business Integrity Award for the year 1997/98, 10 page FAQ, consumer protection information required by the CCB with another consumer protection pamphlet they wrote, and of course the detailed bid with a selection of color options for the pre-painted aluminum gutter parts.

I also supply a physical sample of the gutter I install with a Monster Hidden Hanger screwed in place. If the client is present at the time of the bid I also demonstrate a physical samples of the Leaf-catchers I make.

You can click on the pictures on this web page to get a better detailed look or link to pages with more detailed information.

1. Installation Experience and Ethics:
Doing business as DMR I have been local to the Portland Oregon area since 1985. Your new gutter parts are installed by a seasoned professional who is the owners of DMR Gutters with my apprentice. I have a vested interest in my company's reputation, that no employee would possess. Not installed by people you never got a chance to meet before hand.

I, David Rich have been working in forms of paid construction work since 1980, and was tested in school to have a 99% mechanical aptitude, with a high skill in spatial arrangement, and an artistic back ground.

The first paid gig for wood working I got was for a large human skeletal and muscular structure for the life-size Darth Vader I designed and made for the promotions of the Star Wars sequel 'Empire Strikes Back' in 1980 in Salt Lake City Utah.

I have specialized in sheet metal gutter custom fabrication and installation since 1992. In most cases I redesign the replacements to improve the drainage from what was there before.

Tia Rich decided to set aside her career in Nursing and Social Work to join David in this line of work full time for a few years, so she understands this work from all angles as well. Tia is also very artistic and has a positive influences on this presentation and the gutter work. She still loves being active in this business, but she has built up her business as an apprentice Midwife. Getting her hands covered with spray paint, caulk, and cuts from working with the sheet-metal would not be good for her line of work, so she does not physically work with David much these days, but is often found with him writing up bids. Her web site for that work is: http://inner-serenity.org.

Other than coffee and tea, I don't use artificial stimulants or depressants on or off work. I have written web pages on the philosophy of good ethics in business and one's personal life to express my feelings on ethical responsibility. You can read more about my background on my Company History web page and Biography web page.

2. Honest Bidding:
All Contractors are required by the CCB in State of Oregon to provide potential clients with a free realistic bid within their geographical area, so you as the Homeowner can feel free to get several quotes to receive enough information and competitive prices to be able to make the best possible choice of whom to hire.

I would like to believe I am well worth the wait, but I am often booked out several months in advance. I encourage you to get several bids to appreciate the advantages that I offer. I do not claim to be the cheapest per foot out there, but my bids have still come in thousands less than other gutter contractors. Even if my bid is more than other bids for what you get with my service you will be hard pressed to find a better bargain. Use the information on this web page to help interview other gutter contractors. Here is a Word 'doc' file to print out with a check list of these important details: http://dmr-gutters.com/qs.doc

Without these advantages offered I have heard how other gutter contractor's sales teams have claimed to sell their gutters for a lower price per foot, but for some reason their bids have been hundreds more than mine? I suppose that is very telling of what to expect of such dishonest salesperson, that they would falsify measurements, so they can claim a lower price per foot and still make more money than I.

If you are just doing research for a future date, or are a bit nervous about getting a bid from me, you can go to my Latest News page to see how easy it is to write-up an estimate for yourself. This will give you a good idea of what costs to expect. More importantly it will help keep you from getting robbed by another gutter contractor with inflated measurements. You can also have me try to work-up a no pressure bid through e-mail with your measurements and a few digital photos.

You can read more about my thoughts on Ethical Responsibility.

3. A More Detailed Bid and Presentation:
The image below shows the detailed 2 part carbonless paper copy bid chart I personally designed in Adobe Pagemaker. It will have all the measurements and a concise break-down of what parts are needed to do your job, as seen on the right example. No BS here. It comes with my standard presentation folder which consists of a 3 ring binder that has a dozen other printed sheets of information.

Click above to look over my custom gutter bid chart in more detail.
You can also print it out to fill in, so other gutter contractors cannot take advantage of you with inflated measurements.

Here is a link to a 'pdf' file for an easily printable file:
http://dmr-gutters.com/BidChart.pdf

My bids are free to you as long as you are local to us.

4. Most Detailed Web Site
I do not mean to brag here, but I do clearly seem to have the most comprehensive web site on rain management in the world. I challenge you to find a gutter contractor's web site any where in the country that is even 1/4th as comprehensive as this one. I have spent thousands of hours personally creating and updating this informative web site over the last decade with over 200 web pages and over 2,000 clear digital photographs to demonstrate what I am talking about here. Images that enlarge to full screen digital images to get a better look if you choose. Not to mention the cost of this comprehensive web site, this shows how a good presentation and sharing of important information is very important to me, and my attention to detail.

5. Environmental Friendly:
Saving Fuel
I use a more fuel efficient work vehicle than a conventional truck. I transport my gutter machine on a separate trailer, to reduce fuel wasted, since well over 90% of my driving does not require a gutter machine. I do most of the fabrication work at my shop. Thus reducing the number of trip to the job site. Savings to you from unsightly construction and noise, and better for our ecology.

Construction Debris
Doing most of the fabrication work at my shop allows better control over noise pollution, visual pollution, and construction debris at your house. The installation goes pretty quick, once the gutters are fabricated and ready to install.

Pollution
I also do not leave construction debris at the job site. Even the small rivet ends and sheet metal scrap cut-off gets saved and recycled along with the old gutters. You would be hard pressed to find one small scrap left on the ground, other than maybe some tiny saw shavings.

As to noise pollution: I have yet to discover a quiet saw to cut downspouts with, but my 24v Bosch cordless miter chop saw does cut downspout to length at least 10 times faster than a hack saws used by those other gutter contractor's employees. This help to minimizing the time of that shrill noise. Another reason I refuse to install steel gutter parts, since this saw cannot be used on steel, because it would break the carbide teeth off the saw blade. My impact drill for running screws in is a bit loud, but I do not imagine it is louder than hammering in those 7" nail spikes still used to hang most gutters.

To help minimize this when I prepare to do the gutter work for you, in most cases the gutters are not more than about 40 feet long, so instead of pulling the gutter machine trailer out to your house and need to block the road and parking spaces:
1. I first come out to remove the old gutters and get the exact measurements.
2. I do most if not all the gutter preparation in my work shop.
3. I then bring the gutters out to your house on rubber pads ready to install.

This means that I am not needing to be there at your house with equipment and noise half as long. I have been safely transporting long lengths of gutters on my work car for well over a decade and a half now and have not been pulled over by the Police, or had a related accident. I am a careful driver and have not even had a work related moving violation over the last decade +.

6. The Type or Style of Gutters I Install:
I only have 1 gutter profile option. That seems limited, but this is the best gutter profile made at a reasonable cost. Let me explain: I have had very little request for the larger more expensive K-6 gutter, and I will not install an inferior gutter due to my rigid quality standards. It is a wrestle to balance function, aesthetics, longevity, and cost together, but there are some inherent problems with each of the other gutter profiles. a larger gutter for houses is pointless. When the outlet clogs you may have 5 minutes in stead of just 3 minutes before it overflows. A larger outlet without a strainer will make a much greater difference to keep the outlet from getting damned up and keep the gutter functioning, so you do not have to scale the roof in the worst of weather.

I've turned down several of the largest copper gutter bids all because the owners insisted on half-round gutters w/the round downspouts. My FAQ web page goes into detail about why these and other gutter profiles are very dysfunctional, and even look horrid on a house. Once you better understand the history and development of gutters throughout the last century it will make much more sense. It explains why the K-5 design came about in the first place.

Fascia gutters are very commonly seen on houses built within the last 3 decades, but I've been contracted to replace these gutters on several houses less than 5 years old. That should tell you something about how poorly they work to manage the rain run-off. Continuous aluminum gutters used to be the standard several decades ago. It was used in most of the adds as the new buzz words, and home owners began to expected all metal gutters to be aluminum. Although new-housing construction had been installing cheap steel gutters, since it is not required by the building code to have rust free gutters. All they are required to offer is material that will hold up to a one year warranty!

My K-5 style rain-gutter roll-forming machine produces a gutter that has numerous advantages over all the other gutter profiles, ie: a wider bottom, which lets the debris travel sideways easier, and allows for the larger outlet option, which can reduce the most common area of rain-gutter clogging. (see 'faq' section for more details). There is no need for more options when you have the best profile at a reasonable cost. This style is also making a come back in housing fashions, since the fascia gutters has been predominately used for new construction in the larger cities since the 70's. Housing architecture is going away from the plain boxy look, and more towards a classic ornate styling; with wrap-around porches and 8 sided turrets. This wood molding shape is a good accent to this look. Much like you see with the finest kitchen cabinetry.

The most important issue is not the shape of the gutter, but how well they are installed. In a word; planned obsolescence. Most homeowners are familiar with those larger gutter spikes coming loose and the clear advantage of screws. what would you rather have? A pair of stainless steel screws every 2' placements, or 1 large nail placed every 4' apart? I've taken heavy steel gutters down that were only a few years old that the nails were spaced over 8' apart with nails what were too short as recent as January 2010.

7. A Higher Quality Gutter Machine:
I spent an extra $1,500 on my machine for the extra rack of rollers to bend a safety hem on the back side of the gutter to help keep it stronger and straighter to the roof edge. It also provides an open hem to push the no-clip hidden hanger up into the back of the gutter, again keeping the gap to the roof line minimal as possible.

It may not be uncommon to have a portable rain-gutter roll forming machine used to run out custom continuous lengths of seamless sheet-metal gutters (pictured here), but very few gutter contractors have their machine on a covered trailer, so it is not a rust bucket, like most roll-forming gutter machines you'll see on the road (see below).

8. A Well Protected Gutter Machine:
Most gutter contractors leave their gutter machine exposed to the elements on the back of their truck or on an uncovered trailer. The manufacturers of roll forming gutter machines may install a few stainless steel rollers, but they do not make these machines with stainless steel bearings. They are not even galvanized steel. They have no protective coating to resist rust. Many of the rollers are just raw mild steel as well. Many of the bearing races are in direct contact with the pre-painted gutter material, so pretty much all other gutter machines out there are riddled with rusty rollers and bearings, which will scratch the paint and even dent the new rain-gutters. Within half a decade those gutter machines are only worth their scrap metal value.

I have one of the few gutter roll-forming machines that has been kept out of the elements since it was new. I have already had to replace about a dozen bearings in it due to rust just from condensation in the air. I also keep my machine free of gutter coil when not in use; as recommended by the manufacturer. This avoids dust and debris build-up from settling in the partially formed gutter, which can cause dents in the gutter, and cause rust to develop on those rollers.

Honestly, this is a serious issue. When getting other bids ask them to show you what condition their gutter machine is in. As an example I had to rent a K-6 gutter machine for a large copper gutter job I did back in 2000. That machine was only a couple years old, but the guillotine was rusted solid and would not work. It took me several hours to free it up with WD-40 and hammers. Then I tried to just rotate the spool holding the copper coil, but the bolt to loosen the lock was so seized up it broke off instead of turning. That bolt must not have been even galvanized. Luckily I was making copper gutters and did not need to worry about scratching up the paint surface, but I was not happy with the results of those gutters.

You can see and read about the design and fabrication of the trailer shell I made to cover my gutter machine and keep it as dry as possible on my 5 Gutter Machine web pages.

9. Rust Free Gutters:
I install only rust free sheet metal gutters in Aluminum or Copper with rust free support brackets and stainless steel screws on each gutter job. As far as I know, I am the only gutter contractor in this area who even offer this as an option. I have been told by the wholesale gutter suppliers that I am the only contractor to consistently buy the better parts.

N Aluminum sheet metal had become cost efficient back in the late 60's and was used as a catch-words in advertising., so most of the gutter contractors in this area had converted over to aluminum gutter parts. Although new construction never stopped using painted steel sheet-metal that is not even galvanized still to this day. It is cheaper and the CCB only requires a 1 year warranty on any construction preformed buy a licensed contractors.

As an example: it would not change the cost of a car more than 10% to be made of a metal that will not rust. The Acura sports car shown here demonstrates we do have the technology to do it right some 20 years ago. Even the suspension parts are engineered in aluminum alloy. It would be great to see aluminum used more, so there is much less wasted labor and materials, not to mention a greater landfill problem, since many rusty steel and plastic gutters are not recycled (plastic gutters will not last even as long as steel gutters).

If called on it, those gutter contractors will claim they use only steel for your benefit. They will try to convince you steel gutters are much stronger than aluminum. This is a lie and they know it. Beside the fact that damaged gutters accounts for less than 10% of gutter replacements, compared to the replacement of rusted out steel gutters. The steel being used for gutters is much thinner. These contractors cannot get steel that is as thick as the aluminum used for gutters. Even if they could, it would destroy the bearings in their roll-forming gutter machine, and bog it down, burning out the motor.

Before they ever came out with aluminum gutters, building code officials required a much thicker aluminum sheet metal to be used to compensate for this issue of aluminum being a softer metal. A very high grade of aluminum alloy sheet metal is used for gutters. For example; the recycle value of that aluminum used for rain gutters is better than most other grades of aluminum.

Another extreme example: I replaced some thick custom steel gutters on 2 of the local Stuart Anderson Cattle Co. Restaurants back in 1997. Those steel gutters I removed were so thick they had to be formed in a shop on a powerful hydraulic bender in 10' sections and welded together end to end. I had to use a steel cutting blade on a circular saw to cut them apart with sparks spraying out! Even though they had paid a small fortune for these custom super thick steel gutters, they still did not last. They had rusted through the bottom within a couple decades. Don't be fooled by a slick talking salesman. It is only a matter of cheap materials and their profit margin they are trying to push steel gutters on you.

Don't just take my word for it; call any metal recycler and ask them how much steel is worth versus aluminum, you will find aluminum is worth over 20 times as much per pound. Scrap steel is worth only about 7 cents a pound, where aluminum goes for around 50 cents per pound, depending on the current market 1/2010.

10. Taking my time to do it right:
Truthfully I am a good deal slower than most any other gutter contractor, since I do not rely on crews to do the work, and I put so much more into each job. Although you could see this as my most important advantage, instead of a drawback. Being so far booked out I have lost many sales, but I will not sacrifice quality for a larger production volume. Sometimes I have been late getting started, because of unexpected work required to finish the previous gutter job. I would have to say I take at least 3 to 4 times longer to replace gutters and downspouts than the average single installer.

One reason I am so slow is because I am willing to do aspects of construction other gutter contractors are not. A common problem I run across is finding that the drip-edge roof flashing was not installed, or installed incorrectly and has to be replaced. Some times the wood is too rotten to attach the gutters to. With my 10 year installation warranty (instead of only 1 year), I need to make sure it will last. With the screws I use to install gutters with I know each time if the attachment is good or not, since the screw will strip out and keep spinning if the board were to crack or there is too much dry-rot. It will not synch down tight and kick back the drill. I do not use the clutch on my drills to baby this like others might. If it is not a secure hold I want to know right then. If so I will know I have to run the screw back out and re-angle the screw, switch to a longer screw, or move the bracket to a more solid section wood. Sometimes I find the boards are too rotten and need replaced. I would like to believe that the homeowner would want to know if there is a problem, and I am taking this extra care on their house.

11. Stronger Support Brackets:
I purchase my extra heavy-duty aluminum, or 48oz copper Monster Hidden Hangers from a supplier back East. They are stronger than what is sold at the local wholesale gutter parts suppliers (reason: supply & demand). This is for the strongest possible support of my gutter systems.

Sales here in the N. W. of professional gutter parts to licensed gutter contractors show that around 90% of gutters are still installed using the old fashion 7" nail spike and ferrule tube to hold the outer edge of the gutter out. They don't install them that way because nails are better. It is not even because nails are cheaper or easier to use. They are not easier. It is simply because the gutter contractors are too cheap to buy and replace a powerful $300 18v Makita cordless impact driver like I use. It is a lot cheaper to buy a new or used hammer when their employees steal, damage, or loose them. That is the real reason that these other contractors will not graduate into the 21st century.

I used nails once, back in early 1992 working for a general contractor before I had gotten my own contractor's license. I realized right then how terrible those large nails were for installing gutters. I knew there had to be a better way to do this. I did some research and found this more modern and improved solution.

I have not use nail spikes to install gutters on any job in over 18 years now (since 1992). I now have found a better source for even stronger brackets than I first used. (see my Snow Damage web page for details on durability)

Before they came out with a stronger 18v cordless drills back in 1997 I would have to find a place to plug in, some times at a neighbors house. Then drag my corded drill up and down my ladders to install gutters with screws instead of nails, because I cared that much about quality and my clients satisfaction.

I have even tried to encourage other gutter contractors to switch over to hidden hangers, but they are simply not interested. I am too small an outfit to be any sort of competition to compel them to change over in order to compete for business. If we are to ever see things change it is up to you to demand better parts and service from contractors you get bids from.

12. Stronger Installation:
I use stainless steel wood screw installation for a stronger more reliable hold of the gutters and downspouts. I even use 2 screws in each Monster Hidden Hanger (as shown). That is the equivalent of 1 screw per foot, which is over 8 times the requirement of the building code in this area; of just 1 nail per 4'.

Common sense and the over whelming evidence proves nail spikes do not work. Most home owners are familiar with these large nails working loose and need pounded back in place each late Fall when they are up there cleaning the gutters. Not that I would ever do this, but even if I were to hammer the screw in; the abrasiveness of the teeth would hold in better than a nail. Nails are for Neanderthals. There, I've said it.

Just say NO to nails!

If there is too much dry rot for a good hold, or the board crack and splits, I will always know it, because the drill will keep spinning as the screw has stripped out the wood and lost all grip. Most importantly; I will know every time when these screws have a good grip and should hold. If not, I will change the angle of the screw, use a longer screw, or move the attachment to find some good wood near by. In cases where there is not enough solid wood in close proximity of where I need to fasten the gutters, I can then discuss with the client options for replacing of those rotten boards. This also allows for simple adjustment or removal of the gutters latter on, if needed.

I also place the rain-gutter hidden hangers every 2 feet, which is twice as much as building code calls for. This makes the rain-gutters especially sturdy when leaning a ladder against them and other causes of dents. They are over twice as sturdy as any conventional installations for that fact alone.

13. Customized Solutions:
With my tested 99% mechanical aptitude, an advanced sense of spatial arrangement, and artistic back ground I offer my clients custom design solutions where needed to best accommodate their special needs. Something that seems to be quite the rarity in this modern world of mass production and the loss of the craftsman.

I have begun to sell a great deal of custom copper work to clients across the Nation through my other web site http://copper-by-design.com, which now accounts for a good 50% of my work. It may be only be a matter of time before I can no longer do local gutter installations, so I've begun an apprenticeship program to find young men who share my ethics for quality. Here is an example (8/07) of my custom copper work designing in building this decorative copper chimney for a client's Victorian home in California:

See my Custom Sheet Metal Fabrication web pages for more examples of my creativity and problem solving skills. At the risk of vanity I seem to have very little competition through out the USA in this area of expertise.

14. Better End-cap Options:
As well as sealing it better with a more expensive caulk and also pressing the caulk into the seam with my finger and then sealing it to the elements with spay paint, I'm one of the only gutter contractors who offers the Mitered End-cap option seen on the right.

They do cost a little extra; counting the same as a corner, since it takes about the same amount of labor. I do not claim they will last any better. It is simply an aesthetic issue, but they are more durable with a thicker sheet metal than the standard end-caps seen on the left. I am not one to insist on a detail like this, so it is only around 10 to 15% of my aluminum gutter clients who go for this option, but it is less than 10% of my copper gutter clients who do not go for this option.

15. Better Caulk for Sealing the Gutters:
For rain-gutters long term water holding reliability end-caps and corners are only as good as the caulk and fasteners used. In the old days the best way to seal gutters was to solder them together, since they did not have the advanced caulks we have today. Open flame right near the wood structure has proven to be a dangerous way to seal a gutter and does not work for painted sheet metal or even unpainted aluminum. It is now best to use caulk and rivets to seal copper gutters.

Because of the high cost and low demand for a better caulk from the other gutter contractors in this area I have to make a special trip to window seal supplier to buy the best caulk that they sell, which runs over 3x the cost. It is called PRO-SEAL 34 out of Redmond WA (1 800 349-7325). This is a higher quality caulk than any of my competitors use, since it does cost over 3 times the as much as the caulks sold in the local wholesale professional gutter parts suppliers.

Using their M-34 Polycarbonate sealant technology, this caulk remains soft and flexible and is rated at 350% expansion after curing, compared to the others at 25 to 50% expansion, since it does not become brittle over time like the most common gutter seals do.

I also double seal the corners and cover the rivet ends inside the gutter. Then I press the caulk in with my finger. I then smoothen it out, using spray paint as a solvent, finding places I may have still missed (most installers do not want to get their fingers sticky with caulk). I then spray paint over that, to keep the UV of the sun off the caulk. I have been using it for about 15 years now, and I have had no caulk related warranty issues.

How many gutters have you seen that leak at the corners?

16. Gutter Leveling:
I've found this is a terribly overlooked issue with most gutter contractors. My rain-gutter installation is carefully checked during installation with a level in order to maintain a slight slope towards the outlet. I have the bubble in the level touch one line to give us a suggested grade, as opposed to centered between the two lines. This makes for little to no possible standing water in a clean gutter, and better flow for drainage. The wood screw gutter installation method I use allows for easy adjustment while I am installing my gutter products, or even changes later on, incase of unexpected settling of the house were to occur.

I have found that most installer do not even use a level for most of their jobs. They just place them straight with the roof line and call it good. Often times it only takes and inch of debris near the outlet to cause the gutter to over-flow at the other end of the gutter. They can just say how it is not their responsibility to keep your gutters perfectly clean, but that means even when they are clean there may be as much as 4" of standing water in the other end of the gutter.

Ask them about this issue when getting bids and have them put it in writing that they will make sure there is no standing water in the gutters. Also tell them you will be checking them for yourself when they care done. And if you hire them, watch them to see if their employees do as that salesperson claimed they would. You will still need to check it yourself with a level or do a water test, so you can insist they return to install them correctly, but most likely they will damage the new gutters trying to grade them properly. Fascia style gutters cannot be even leveled, let alone given a proper grade towards the outlets.

I even crimp the back wall of the gutters over the outlets, so they will dip at the outlet and drain down from both sides.

17. Installation Warranty:
I provide 10 year labor warranty as a standard (see our Warranty page). With the Business Integrity Award I have received my warranty is one you can trust. I have offered longer warranties in the past, but at 47 years old (1/63), how much longer can I be expected to be climbing ladders? I've seriously hurt my back twice already in the last few years.

The problem is how the CCB requires Homeowners to have filed a valid complaints within 1 year period of completion of any work by licensed contractors, How likely is it that you will discover a problem within that first year and then file a complaint in time, after that contractor had stalled you for as long as possible, before you realize they will not fix the problem? Many gutter contractors will intentionally confuse their clients with material warranties, but will not bother to stand by their work when push comes to shove beyond that first year.

18. Rust Free Rivets:
To assemble these sheet metal rain-gutters parts together with aluminum or copper rivets (like used in aircraft construction), instead of the steel zip screws used by most installers. LeafGuard ® included. Those steel zip screws are quick and easy to use, being one-step insertion, hence their name. But those steel zip screws are prone to rust within a few years. They cannot make usable aluminum zip screws, because they need the screw threads to be a harder metal than the aluminum sheet metal or the threads will strip off before they seat the two or three layers of sheet metal together. I have found a source back East for stainless steel zip screws, but then you still have this large hex head to see as a larger lump on the outside of the gutters and they would not be the right color.

Simply speaking rivets are the best fastener to use to hold sheet metal parts together where parts cannot be soldered or spot-welded together, but most gutter contractors do not want to bother with pre-drilling a hole and then switching over to hand riveting tool.

19. More Rivets in Each Corner:
As you see here the big thing about professional gutters is for them to be made in custom lengths to fit on your house as seamless as possible. But of course we cannot make a seamless end-cap or corner transition, so how I seal them is paramount. As I assemble these sheet metal rain-gutters parts together with a better caulk I also use 11 to 15 fasteners on each corner, depending on what sort of configuration it is. The average is only 5 fasteners with other gutter contractors.

As listed above most gutter contractors just use steel zip screws, and very few of them. LeafGuard ® included. Look closely at the gutters you have now and count the fasteners holding the corners together. If you have ever closely look at aircraft construction they use a lot of rivets very close together.

20. Better Outlets
Beside the larger No-clog outlets; since my humble beginning of gutter replacement in 1993 I remain one of the only gutter contractors in the country to secure the first elbow under the gutter before installation of the gutters (where possible). At the outlet drop, I have also been bending the floor of the gutter down into the outlet drop and riveted through the side of the elbow through this flange bent down, to secure the outlet and elbow to the gutter floor. Also sealing it with a better caulk than what the other contractors use. Leaving no obstruction in the floor of the gutter to begin a dam up with debris inside the gutter. This is consistent with the concept of water flow. Even though it went against the norm of gutter construction, I (David Rich) was able to quickly figure out how this is the only way these assembly should be done. I challenge anyone to come up with a logical argument against this.

21. Stronger Downspouts:
The striped corrugation of the downspouts I use adds a good deal of strength to the thin sheet metal, making them more dent resistant. As opposed to the plain square downspouts you probably have now.

22. Double Riveted Downspout Connections:
I double-rivet each downspout connection, so they are much less likely to fall apart. I even rivet the first elbow onto the bottom of the gutter, so it will not dislodge from the gutter. I do leave one connection un-riveted right after that first elbow, so the whole downspout can be removed for painting or other service.

Also see my 'Downspout Comparison' web page to see more about this issue.

23. Better Downspout Wall Mounts:
For downspout installations I use a set of larger pipe cleats for 3x4 DS pipes that are riveted into the back of the downspout pipe, which looks much nicer. I installed them with #3 Philips stainless steel screws for easy removal, with little to no damage, (instead of the straps and nails that most gutter contractors have their workers use).

I have been using these pipe cleats on all my gutter jobs since 1996. I also use a larger pipe cleat that was designed for the 4" wide downspouts. It has 6 pre-drilled holes for the attachment rivets instead of only 2, so theft of the downspouts would be much more difficult.

24. More Downspout Elbow Options and Custom Fabrication:
Most gutter contractors are too cheap to buy and stock any downspout elbows, and instruct their installers to simply cut the straight downspout pipes and fold them into shape. In a debris free environment this will work fine, but it makes for a noisy downspout with an annoying dripping noise. This also makes these downspouts terrible for clogging in most situation. They also use the smaller plain rectangular downspouts instead of the stronger corrugated downspouts I use. Those smooth downspouts they use also show dents more visibly that the corrugated type.

I stock over five times as many different types of downspout elbows and manufacture what I cannot buy to provide my clients with a more custom fit to their special house's needs, where most gutter contractors prefer to minimize their inventory down to only 2 different types of elbows; the most common 'A' elbow and the 'B' style shown here over the stone work.

I use the following elbow configurations:
1. A
2. A offset
3. 1.5" double A offset
4. 2" double A offset
5. 3" double A offset
6. B
7. B offset
8. double B offset
9. funnels (to combine 2 downspout into one)
10. 3"x 4" A
11. 3"x 4" B
12. 3"x 4" to 2"x 3" reducer
13. custom built open top trays to traffic the rain water back to the siding in areas with very little headroom:

25. Drip-edge Flashing and other custom flashing needs:
I custom make heavy gauge aluminum or copper drip-edge flashing, to use on the many houses that were roofed improperly. The drip-edge makes sure the water transition from the roofing into the rain-gutter properly, and does not soak under the roofing shingles to rot out the roof plywood, fascia board, or rafter-tails.

I also make matching custom fascia metal covers to better protect the wood behind the gutters, or cover the diagonal rake edge boards of the roof to hide old flaking paint and cracked boards with ugly knots in them.

E-mail DMR Gutters
for a free no-obligation estimate, for the
finest in rain management.
.as long as you are local to the Portland Oregon area

Itemized bookmarked links to the many DMR Gutters advantages
1. Installation Experience	12. Strongest Installation	23. Downspout Mounts
2. Honest Free Bidding	13. Customized Solutions	24. More DS Elbows
3. Detailed Bids	14. Better Endcaps	25. Drip-edge Flashing +
4. Most Detailed Web site	15. Better Caulk for Sealing	26. 27 Free Color Choices
5. Environmental Friendly	16. Gutter Leveling	27. Responsive to Calls & E-mail
6. Shape Design & Size	17. Longer Warranty	28. Referrals & Awards
7. Better Gutter Machine	18. Rust-free Rivets	29. Honesty in the Final Cost
8. Protected Gutter Machine	19. More rivets in corners	30. Ethical Responsibility
9. Rust-free Gutters	20. Better Outlets	31. My Minimum Charges
10. Take Time to Do it Right	21. Stronger Downspouts	Compare Debris Protection
11. Stronger Support brackets	22. Double Riveted DS Parts	Contact Information
Use the information on this web page to help interview other gutter contractors, especially if you are not local to the Portland Oregon area. Here is a Word doc file to print out with a check list of these important details: http://dmr-gutters.com/qs.doc